Legitimate Dowry

The dowry system has been banned by the Govt of India. Most of the people, at least the educated ones look down at the practice as abhor-able. But c'mon, we got to get our advantage of being a groom's side. So what do we do? Continue to practice it. Only, we change its name. We call it 'Gifts from the bride's family'. In other words, a legitimate dowry because it has been offered willingly.

You might not know it or want to believe it but the practice goes on. And how do I know? Its not some knowledge I gained out of media reports or trash mags but I have observed it amongst my own relatives.

I remember those days when I was a little boy. It was an uncle's wedding and living in a small town, in accordance to the culture, a bunch of us, mostly grandparents and kids had gathered for a 4 day stay at the the wedded-to-be's place. It was the night time and the oldies, mostly women, were lying on the beds in the shamiana. A serious discussion was going on, the groom's mother, one of my grandmothers being the loudest.

A: They are like that only. Said that she will be wearing _ grams of jewelery. Only _ grams? I mean, can you believe it?
B: See, didn't I tell you? All the girls' side are like that only. You should've asked for more na.
A: Ya, I totally agree. Dunno where my mind was.
C: And not just that, did you observe the ring was much inferior than promised?
A(surprised): Was it?
*collective laugh*
C: Its your son's wedding, for God's sake. Don't you think you should pay a little more attention to such details?
D: And the sarees- crap quality. Didn't like it. Not one. And they didn't give it to everyone. Look how they shrewdly neglected X and Y and their families...

and so on.

I, in those days, was more inclined towards playing hide n seek and so went away soon. Somehow, this incident lingered in my mind. And just recently, reading a novel which had such a scene, the rage simmered.

How can we be such hypocrites? We, on one hand, criticize such a system and continue doing it citing "So what? Everyone does it. Besides, the bride's side wants to give it." Tell me, why would a side want to fondle the people they don't even know, whom they don't even care how their children are faring, how they went to the recent foreign trip sponsored by their son in America and other such bull? They are made to do it. And the chief reason of this is the flowered concept of 'Arranged Marriage'.

How does this work? The families meet and approval is sought. Once it is done, negotiations take place, in other words, talks which decide how hard the groom's family is going to screw bride's. The couple has no say in it. It is all the matters in the hands of the elderly. How much gold they are gonna give the bride, how and where they are gonna do the reception, what would be the kind of ring to be gifted to the son-in-law, how maximum relatives are going to be gifted sarees, dry fruits etc. The convention is engagement ceremony 50:50, wedding day 50:50 and the reception, usually the grandest affair of all, fully borne by the bride's family. How more sick can it get?

The bride, even though she might be from the modern school of thinking, is forbidden from opposing it. Why? Otherwise she might come across as aggressive and no mother-in-law likes her daughter-in-law to be aggressive. A girl has to be meek as a cow, obedient as a kindergarten student and mindless as an ass. She has to keep her head and eyes lowered in the entire ceremony, smiling for the cameras when her father's back is broken by the weighty loans he has to take to keep her daughter happy, to give his daughter a dream wedding, complete with ice sculptures and the various animals carved out of brinjals and pumpkins. What's ironical is that he justifies it as it being 'Every father's dream.'

What about the son then? He keeps too busy in the shopping of blazers and organizing the bachelor's party. Besides he also has endless pairs of legs whose dust he has to touch along with his wife-to-be in the getting-familiar-with process. How can he bother about such trivial issues then? Further, if he's getting wealth coming to his house along with a girl to call his own, why would he refuse?

Oh and by the way, me saying that this is prevalent in the arrange marriage scenario doesn't mean that love marriage is totally aloof of this. One might expect the latter to consist of me-first kinda couples and meek families, who haven't got much say as their children have already decided their respective spouse. But, oh no, the expectations are belied yet again.

What I don't get is don't the bride's side have any self respect whatsoever? Does such a family that values money over your daughter's value is even worth all the loans? And what is the guarantee that the other side is satisfied and will keep your child happy. Do you take your daughter to be a commodity that you want to sell off? Don't they say you can't buy happiness??

Angry, pissed, mad, livid, incensed, infuriated, enraged, irate...it makes me.

P.S. An eighteen year old female friend of mine was recently ordered by her mother to come along gold shopping. When asked why, the mother said its for her marriage. Even though its going to take place years from now, they should start preparing themselves otherwise she won't get a husband...

Dowry system. Fascinating topic. Hypocrites? This country is filled with ironies!

I know about situations like yours. I know people who have done that stuff, but again, like you, those times I just used to be interested in counting how many cars are moving on the road - because I was never the type to run around with stranger kids (lol, stranger kids!) and because that was the next best thing for me beside running around.

but as far as my own family is concerned - correction - as far as my immediate family is concerned, I can quite positively say that most of my family members are against it. I say MOST of them, cuz a few haven't yet got married. I remember one of my recent Chacha's who got married. He refused the girl to pay for anything. After some serious persuasion he accepted to let them pay for the wedding.

[For the Un-Indians here...a "chacha" is a relative who happens to be...um...your Dad's First Cousin.]

Not all families are doing it though, Omkar. Today, even though we hear of many cases where people ask for dowry, there are also cases where some people report about such incidents, and also cases where the boys (like mentioned above) refuse dowry even if the Girl's side offers it.

Lets find some statistical data now.

Hm. Dowry's one of those things that comes with the Indian culture eh? I'm against it (obviously -.- ) and I guess compared to olden days, its far less now. And if you were to look at the +ve side, i think it would be that it takes a lot of load off the guy cos he's the one who 'provides' for the family. But now a days most women have a job so I think the system is not necessary at all. In my family, i've never heard of anybody giving/receiving dowry but yeah the "gold-business" is always there =.=

I dont really care much for the dowry system either... but its such a deeply rooted tradition that it will take a while to get flushed out of the system... and Omkar... I realize you are trying to stress a point.... but know that guys dont always have it easy... dowry or not... the law offers much more protection to a woman than a man...

kyo wrote:I dont really care much for the dowry system either... but its such a deeply rooted tradition that it will take a while to get flushed out of the system... and Omkar... I realize you are trying to stress a point.... but know that guys dont always have it easy... dowry or not... the law offers much more protection to a woman than a man...

Oh yeah? What exactly you mean by that Kyo? Is it like a justified revenge then? Law offers us less protection, lets screw the girls everybody? And there's a reason the law is titled in women's favor. It helps to nail the criminals more conveniently. And it is an established fact that men commit far more atrocities on women than women do on men. Though there is a perfect chance of misuse, the misuse would be much much more if it was in men's favor and rightful conviction will be much lesser if the law was equal.

And dude, we, being men, know how much kameene we are.

I am not saying that (as men) we need to take revenge or whatnot. What I said was that the law gives more than enough protection to women. But if they try to misuse it, then it devalues the system and breeds mistrust and resentment which will then create an environment where men will want to (to put it bluntly) screw women.

Just by the way ....HOW is it possible that a law that is equal will lower the chances of rightful conviction? I fail to see how a law which would offer both parties equal chances and would demand equal evidence from both sides to support their charges would actually reduce the conviction rate. I personally think that when a person wrongly accuses ANYONE of ANY gender of a crime... they must be subject to a punishment equivalent to the one that they demanded be meted out to the alleged perpetrator.

I am not being a chauvinist here, I respect women a lot. Some of the people I respect and trust the most in this world are women.

I just want to ask one question. Why is is that so many women and feminists want to have their cake and eat it too? They are quick to demand equality in work environment etc etc but are also reluctant to let go of their expectations of chivalry and their favored status in the country's laws. Why demand reservations and female quotas when you consider yourself equal to men? Why expect a man to give up his seat on the crowded bus? Why expect him to hold the door open for you huh?

Well,I'm pretty much certain that though women demand equality,all they want is to be viewed with special attention and care just because they are women (the so called dominated kind),which makes it inequality,if you think about it. Though I'm not saying that all women need pampering but I've seen quite a few specimens and frankly they annoy the hell out of me.....

DIE HARD wrote:Well,I'm pretty much certain that though women demand equality,all they want is to be viewed with special attention and care just because they are women (the so called dominated kind),which makes it inequality,if you think about it. Though I'm not saying that all women need pampering but I've seen quite a few specimens and frankly they annoy the hell out of me.....

-.- ...aint that nice..but yeah u r kinda right o.o

DIE HARD wrote:Well,I'm pretty much certain that though women demand equality,all they want is to be viewed with special attention and care just because they are women (the so called dominated kind),which makes it inequality,if you think about it.

Special attention and care?-
When I travel in an auto or a crowded bus I don't want to resort to techniques like stepping over a man's shoes(with high heels) just to stop him from trying to brush his hand against my thigh or lean too much on my shoulders or nudge me with his elbows and so on n so forth...
Am I asking for special care and attention?
I just want to be left alone.I want to travel in peace without any groping pervert trying to ruin my mood for the entire day.Is that asking for too much?
I'M A FRIGGIN HUMAN BEING HERE NOT A SOFT CUSHION FOR CHRIST'S SAKE.

It's a cruel world for a woman DH senpai especially in countries like India.
I read this article on survival strategies somewhere where the author wrote something along these lines-
In order to survive in a corporate world a woman has to either act as a bitch or a man.(mods,edit my post if you want to but I had to type out the whole word...my apologies)
Now can you tell me why that is?-I can.'Cause otherwise you'll be ruthlessly exploited or taken advantage of by your colleagues or superiors.

Scientifically speaking a woman has lesser number of brain cells or neurones than a man does.So yes a woman is not as smart as a guy.Yet we continue to compete with men in every aspect of life and we are not doing a bad job.It's just that I don't think it'll hurt people too much if they do away with the discrimination and started viewing us as human beings first and women later.

About the legitimate dowry thing...it's never going to stop Omkar.Even if the groom's family have an open-minded perspective about the whole thing...the neighbor's will be like-'oh my how shameless of her father..they sent her without any gifts.' And even though most families are shying away from directly demanding dowry at the time of marriage if the bride's family fails to satisfy them they'll always nurse a grudge against the poor girl and harass her to no extent.

So would you blame the bride's parents if they want to play it safe?It's their daughter after all.

Marriage in our country is never a union of two souls.It's like a package deal.It's business.

Wow,somebody sure is fired up!

Note that in my statement I said not all women need special pampering. But some DO. It's great that you're such a liberal thinker May chan and I completely agree that there's nothing wrong with wanting peace and privacy,but you can't equate yourself to all women. Frankly speaking,all the girls in our IT department are drama queens. It's great that they have a dozen boyfriends waiting for them across the land,but must they talk with them on the cell during classes?! Must they put on make ups,do their hair,put on lip gloss etc while the professor is delivering lectures? Oh,and don't even get me started on the point of them nagging to the profs. about how the internal questions were tough,how their papers were checked unjustly and so on! Hell,they even go so far as to demand that the questions be publicly disclosed before the exams! They talk like wise old sages and act like 3 year olds. Us guys cause disturbance in the classes too with constant chatter but nothing like this! For gods sake, it's a college,not a beauty parlor,not your back yard and the professors are not your fiancé! Honestly,I don't understand some women at all... thank god for that!

"Marriage in our country is never a union of two souls.It's like a package deal.It's business."--- Dena paona by Tagore,it's a great reference material regarding the issue.Very moving and very critical. Though the situation has changed a lot,but some of us are still left stagnant in the past in our thinking of what marriage actually means.

DIE HARD wrote:It's great that they have a dozen boyfriends waiting for them across the land,but must they talk with them on the cell during classes?! Must they put on make ups,do their hair,put on lip gloss etc while the professor is delivering lectures?

Putting on make-up in class?Lol I sure have never heard of that one.Well all that stuff is always reserved for the rest-room or the common room.
And talking to boyfriends in class? o_O ...they sure sound desperate.

But hey all this has nothing to do with demanding equality does it?
I've personally seen many guys speaking to others over the phone in class.So in the end people from both gender are breaking rules here...both are to be blamed.

Oh,and don't even get me started on the point of them nagging to the profs. about how the internal questions were tough,how their papers were checked unjustly and so on! Hell,they even go so far as to demand that the questions be publicly disclosed before the exams! They talk like wise old sages and act like 3 year olds.

I'm sure that guys do the same DH senpai.Maybe not in your class but trust me....they DO.

But yes I agree with you partly 'cause there are some girls like the ones you mentioned.But hey don't judge an entire race by their standards.

"Marriage in our country is never a union of two souls.It's like a package deal.It's business."--- Dena paona by Tagore,it's a great reference material regarding the issue.Very moving and very critical. Though the situation has changed a lot,but some of us are still left stagnant in the past in our thinking of what marriage actually means.

Yep I read Dena paona in the 9th standard I think.Pained me a lot.Tagore's pampered daughter was a victim of this social evil herself so that's why Dena Paona came into existence.Sad huh?

"But hey don't judge an entire race by their standards."--- I'm NOT! I did say that all women are not alike. Just that I personally don't have many fond experiences with my female classmates. And it's NOT because they ignore me! I'm perfectly alright as long as it stays that way!!About Tagore,yeah I heard it too. No wonder the writing was so vivid and inspired.

@ Kyo:

the law offers much more protection to a woman than a man.

What is that vague statement supposed to mean, 'the law'? Do you mean the anti-dowry law? (Nothing else seems relevant.) Because, if you do, you'd do well to remember that it was brought in because girls are still being burnt to death over their failure to bring in enough cash. I have never heard of a guy being killed for failing to bring in dowry. Sorry, vague whinges about 'equal treatment' are not convincing me here. When the status is so unequal to begin with, how can you have an 'equal' law? Sure, some women misuse the dowry law, but merely because a law is misused (which law isn't?) doesn't mean that there isn't a good reason for its existence.

...favored status in the country's laws .... Why demand reservations and female quotas when you consider yourself equal to men?

The whole point of any reservation (whether it's for women or any other category) is to correct historical injustice, and it cannot be denied that women have historically been treated as inferior. The problem with any reservation in India is that, rather than being a means towards an end, it becomes an end in itself and a political tool. I have ambiguous feelings towards reservation. On the one hand, there are really downtrodden people who benefit from such schemes. On the other hand, we know that reservation just gets exploited by those who don't need it at all. Such a mess.

@ DH:

Though I'm not saying that all women need pampering but I've seen quite a few specimens

Exactly how many traditional Indian men (we're not talking about sensitive metrosexuals, the minority) deign to lift a finger at home? Most women are expected to fully take care of the household, bring up the children and cater to their husband's every whim. In addition to holding down a job. (Or, if they want to work, they're not allowed to.) Pampering, is it?

And it's NOT because they ignore me!

I think we have got to the root of the problem here! Mm, green-eyed monster.

@ Mayflower:

Scientifically speaking a woman has lesser number of brain cells or neurones than a man does.So yes a woman is not as smart as a guy.

That is so unscientific. Since when does quantity equal quality? For example, any one of my neurones is more than equivalent to the whole of DH's brain. (Though that's a simple 1 > 0 inequality, I guess.) Jokes apart, if size were all that mattered, blue whales would be the smartest creatures on earth. Don't draw hasty conclusions about yourself based on half-baked factoids you read somewhere, Mayflower.

I pretty much agree with Omkar on this. Dowry is a pernicious system. The only way to get out of this is if women took charge and put their foot down. Remember that Delhi girl Nisha Sharma? A sister of one of my classmates did this - the day before her wedding (it was a love match) the in-laws demanded that she pay for a whole bunch of guests from the bridegroom's side etc. etc. (the whole 'voluntary gifts' scenario). My friend's sister called the wedding off. The day before, after everything had been arranged.

One of my former colleagues came to me and another senior in the department before she was to get married - she was worried about the dowry that she knew her parents were going to give. (Willingly, which was the complicating factor.) Our question was: Was she herself willing to go against everyone and cancel the wedding? We were fine with supporting her on that. But she wasn't prepared to do that, so there was nothing much we could tell her practically.

Ideally, it has to come from both the bride and her parents. Or at least one of them. They have to be very clear that they're willing to face social criticism. If the parents are willing to go along, and the bride is not willing to protest, not much is going to change. If more women found the courage to speak up, this system would die out. But as long as the women don't say anything, the people around them will continue to do things 'for their good'.

The other aspect is the boys. This side isn't often talked about. Mostly it isn't the boys themselves but their parents and relatives who make the demands. How about if the boys took an interest and made it clear that they wouldn't accept any dowry, gift, whatever? No matter who called them foolish for it. Again, it takes a bit of backbone to stand up to society, but it has to be done. It's so sad to say that it takes courage to go along with the law, but that's the reality in India.

Here is a more complete snippet from my post.....

dowry or not... the law offers much more protection to a woman than a man...

I was talking about all laws dealing with crimes against women.

Here is omkars post right after that....

Oh yeah? What exactly you mean by that Kyo? Is it like a justified revenge then? Law offers us less protection, lets screw the girls everybody? And there's a reason the law is titled in women's favor. It helps to nail the criminals more conveniently. And it is an established fact that men commit far more atrocities on women than women do on men. Though there is a perfect chance of misuse, the misuse would be much much more if it was in men's favor and rightful conviction will be much lesser if the law was equal.

And dude, we, being men, know how much kameene we are.

Just by the way ....HOW is it possible that a law that is equal will lower the chances of rightful conviction? I fail to see how a law which would offer both parties equal chances and would demand equal evidence from both sides to support their charges would actually reduce the conviction rate. I personally think that when a person wrongly accuses ANYONE of ANY gender of a crime... they must be subject to a punishment equivalent to the one that they demanded be meted out to the alleged perpetrator.

I was talking about all laws which deal with crimes against women. I was a bit riled up by Omkars accusing tone...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Call it 'vague' or whatever. I am just saying that when someone accuses someone else of committing a crime. They should have sufficient evidence to back it up. Women are still oppressed in many parts of the world including India... and its sad... and I am not asking that the law be more lenient or in any way show more preferential treatment towards the men... I am asking that it take into consideration evidence that men provide in their defense and give it the same weight-age as evidence provided by the woman... The laws which are in place are basically fine... only problem is that they require the men to provide much more in the way of evidence when they are trying to prove their innocence...

Again I am talking about the law in general... not just dowry law...

You cite examples about women.... I have one about men... my friends brother got married some time ago... and two months after the marriage he gets locked up in jail because his wife accused him of harassing her and demanding dowry. As it turns out, all she wanted was to get a quick divorce and perhaps an out of court settlement so she could elope with a secret lover of hers. This man... and he was totally innocent... had to endure the trauma of being sent to prison and having to spend a week in there... it is likely a stigma that will affect him for the rest of his life... The cops would not listen to his protestations nor those of his family and they ignored his and other witnesses testimonies about how the man and his wife simply had a quarrel about a possible divorce on the night when she filed charges....

Perhaps my view is skewed by the fact that these people who are close to me had to undergo such an experience... but it is what it is... you can fault me for it if you like... its not about me not trusting women... its about how in its current form, the system makes it incredibly hard for an innocent man to prove his innocence....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The dowry system unfortunately looks like it will persevere for a lot longer than any of us would like to think... unless (as you have mentioned) enough people work up the courage to stand against society... doesn't really matter who makes the stand... the girl. her parents, the guy... his parents.... as long as someone does...

Ithil wrote:Exactly how many traditional Indian men (we're not talking about sensitive metrosexuals, the minority) deign to lift a finger at home? Most women are expected to fully take care of the household, bring up the children and cater to their husband's every whim. In addition to holding down a job. (Or, if they want to work, they're not allowed to.) Pampering, is it?

Note that I said SOME women need pampering and NOT all. And be practical here,it's true. You say about women breaking their backs catering to the whims of men,but there are plenty of cases where the reverse is true. Trust me,I've seen examples which are related to me personally.

I think we have got to the root of the problem here! Mm, green-eyed monster.

You think so huh? Man! How I wish I could bring you down to my college and let you mingle with them girls. I would love to see your expression then!

That is so unscientific. Since when does quantity equal quality? For example, any one of my neurones is more than equivalent to the whole of DH's brain. (Though that's a simple 1 > 0 inequality, I guess.)

How nice! Never knew my hard disk is so empty! But it has it's own advantages you know. It decreases your utility but increases the processing speed. In some cases,quick reaction is more important than a well thought out plan...

Omkar, you do have a point here in saying that legitimate dowry is a part of the system today. But you and the guys going on and on about it is no good. Its the gals who have to take a stand. We can have gals educated and literate and modern and everything, but what's the point of it all if they cant take a stand for what is right? What's the chip on shoulder about being from the groom's side? Earlier, it made partial sense, considering that the women didn't contribute to the household expenses, so it was a kind of one time investment for the girl's future. But today, when parents are spending lakhs of rupees on a girl's education, when a girl is financially independent, when she often earns more than her husband (oops, not often, courtesy the great Indian male ego) how does dowry hold a base in the society?
Yes, i admit the law is on our side. But how many of girls actually resort to the law? if they really did, there wouldn't be 1 dowry death every 4 hours in India (source: zeenews)!! And if this is the reported figures, what might be the actual truth? Just having a legal system doesn't work... Dowry has such a deep rooted status symbol in the Indian society that the new and improved legal system cannot combat it!!
And regarding the book, are you talking about 2 States? Its hypocritical... Ananaya solves the dowry problem in Minti's wedding, but in her own wedding, her father asks if the groom's side wants some 'big gifts'! If an IIMA pass-out and brand manager HLL lives with this mentality, what about the rest of the female population??
I think its time for girls to put their foot down. Education is abysmally wasted if it finds no real application. What's the point of being a super intelligent topper if you don't use your brains to save your dignity? Are girls for sale? And even in case of a sale, its the buyer who pays. Are girls such a vain commodity that the seller has to pay to the buyer to buy it err her?? It feels pathetic to marginalise girls to something you can get in a marketplace. Guys are doing us no favour by marrying us. When will we understand that its no good being a good daughter-in-law if it means being a cow!!
Worst is, dowry abuse doesn't end with marriage. If they can do it once, they can very well do it again. I applaud every single girl who called off their marriage and rang 100 when the groom's side came up with unreasonable demands. And I wish, the rest of us would gather the courage to do the same, ASAP!!

Ankita wrote:Omkar, you do have a point here in saying that legitimate dowry is a part of the system today. But you and the guys going on and on about it is no good. Its the gals who have to take a stand. We can have gals educated and literate and modern and everything, but what's the point of it all if they cant take a stand for what is right? What's the chip on shoulder about being from the groom's side? Earlier, it made partial sense, considering that the women didn't contribute to the household expenses, so it was a kind of one time investment for the girl's future. But today, when parents are spending lakhs of rupees on a girl's education, when a girl is financially independent, when she often earns more than her husband (oops, not often, courtesy the great Indian male ego) how does dowry hold a base in the society?
Yes, i admit the law is on our side. But how many of girls actually resort to the law? if they really did, there wouldn't be 1 dowry death every 4 hours in India (source: zeenews)!! And if this is the reported figures, what might be the actual truth? Just having a legal system doesn't work... Dowry has such a deep rooted status symbol in the Indian society that the new and improved legal system cannot combat it!!
And regarding the book, are you talking about 2 States? Its hypocritical... Ananaya solves the dowry problem in Minti's wedding, but in her own wedding, her father asks if the groom's side wants some 'big gifts'! If an IIMA pass-out and brand manager HLL lives with this mentality, what about the rest of the female population??
I think its time for girls to put their foot down. Education is abysmally wasted if it finds no real application. What's the point of being a super intelligent topper if you don't use your brains to save your dignity? Are girls for sale? And even in case of a sale, its the buyer who pays. Are girls such a vain commodity that the seller has to pay to the buyer to buy it err her?? It feels pathetic to marginalise girls to something you can get in a marketplace. Guys are doing us no favour by marrying us. When will we understand that its no good being a good daughter-in-law if it means being a cow!!
Worst is, dowry abuse doesn't end with marriage. If they can do it once, they can very well do it again. I applaud every single girl who called off their marriage and rang 100 when the groom's side came up with unreasonable demands. And I wish, the rest of us would gather the courage to do the same, ASAP!!

HEAR HEAR! Nice one Ankita. A +1 rep for you.

Now there's a law student for ya.....all grit and no BS. Very direct,cynical and to the point. A + rep for ya.

Calling it legitimate is so unnecessary, dowry in its crude form still persist.
Scan through the newz anytime, you'll have one news relating to dowry death. And funny thing, most cases occur with the so called "educated class" wherein the guy is an NRI or even for the matter has a good earning, yet the greed still exist in these leeches.

There are laws but the girls don't seem to use them, primarily either its family pressure or status or may be she is just thinking about her children or is hopeful that things will be better or thinks if she leaves him, she'll be single forever -.-

As per me, no giving anything, no taking..let's just build.

How about you guys? What would you do?

" I am who I am, your approval isn't needed "